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kelly o'donnell has more. >> reporter: per gift of speech is a distance memory said her husband mark kelly, yet, gabby giffords halting words. >> too many children. >> reporter: here as a survivor of the tucson assassination attempt which left her partially blind and partially paralyzed. >> you must act, be bold, be courageous. >> reporter: they are both gun owners and they want positive expand sales to make it harder for criminals and the mentally im to get weapons. >> my wife would not be sitting in this seat. she would not have been sitting here today if we had stronger background checks. >>> of all the gun related ideas on the table, democrats believe universal background checks has the best chance politically. >> stop them from the original purchase. you missed that point completely. and i think it's basic. >> senator, i think you missed -- >> reporter: the nra says adding new laws would hit ordinary citizens, not criminals. >> that was kelly o'donnell. >>> this is the year for immigration reform that, is president obama's hope. he laid out his platform and timetable. >>> we kno
kelly o'donnell has more. >> reporter: per gift of speech is a distance memory said her husband mark kelly, yet, gabby giffords halting words. >> too many children. >> reporter: here as a survivor of the tucson assassination attempt which left her partially blind and partially paralyzed. >> you must act, be bold, be courageous. >> reporter: they are both gun owners and they want positive expand sales to make it harder for criminals and the mentally im to get...
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mark kelly is being asked questions by the panel. >> possibly been in the national instant background check system about him that would have prevented him from buying a gun through a background check. that's part of the solution. the other problem, let's say he was denied, denied the purchase of the gun which he purchased in november of 2010, it would have been very easy for him to go to a gun show and purchase a gun without a background check. so you know, there are several things that need to be done and in my opinion and in gabby's opinion, this is one of the most important things we must do to prevent criminals, terrorists and the mentally ill from having easy access to guns. closing the gun show loophole and requiring private sellers to require a background check before they transfer a gun is -- i mean, for us, i can't think of something that would make our country safer than doing just that. >> thank you. >> and mr. lapierre, in 1999 you testified by the house judiciary committee and you testified quote, nobody is more committed than we are to keeping guns out of criminals hands
mark kelly is being asked questions by the panel. >> possibly been in the national instant background check system about him that would have prevented him from buying a gun through a background check. that's part of the solution. the other problem, let's say he was denied, denied the purchase of the gun which he purchased in november of 2010, it would have been very easy for him to go to a gun show and purchase a gun without a background check. so you know, there are several things that...
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the testimony from mark kelly, whose wife, gaby giffords was shot will be heard. and joining me is the author of "the last begun." you were a member of the nra, and the president calls his proposals common sense and critics say it's not going to do a lot to prevent mass shootings and would not have helped in new town, connecticut, if you had the ear of congress, which of the president's recommendations would you tell them to take up first? >> there are three things i would tell them to take up first. but the most important is to ban the high capacity magazines, they are ammunition feeding devices to make it possible to bring military fire power our schools and public gatherings and our churches. that's the most important thing. cut back on the ammunition capacity then go to the complete background check, meaning covering gun shows and private sales between individuals that account for 40% of all firearm sales in the united states and finally i would ban the high capacity semiautomatic rifles themselves. >> critics of the proposal of assault weapon's bans argued th
the testimony from mark kelly, whose wife, gaby giffords was shot will be heard. and joining me is the author of "the last begun." you were a member of the nra, and the president calls his proposals common sense and critics say it's not going to do a lot to prevent mass shootings and would not have helped in new town, connecticut, if you had the ear of congress, which of the president's recommendations would you tell them to take up first? >> there are three things i would tell...
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. >> mark kelly, husband of gabrielle giffords. >> rights demand responsibility. first, fix gun background checks. >> it is not a serious solution for reducing crime. >> the nra is clearly, dramatically out of step. >> lapierre dismissed background checks. >> background checks will never be universal. >> you will never get criminals to go through universal background checks. >> because criminals will never submit to them. >> they will not go to purchase the guns because there will be a background check. >> you missed the point completely. and i think it is basic. >> senator, i think you -- >> let there be order. >> i think you're missing it. >> let there be more. >> if chairman patrick leahy pressed lapierre. >> if you're a dealer, that is already the law. >> please, mr. lapierre, i'm not trying to play games here, but if you could just answer the question. >> rights demand responsibility. law abiding gun owners will not accept blame. >> americans are looking to us for solutions and for action. >> this time must be different. >> the senate judiciary committee toda
. >> mark kelly, husband of gabrielle giffords. >> rights demand responsibility. first, fix gun background checks. >> it is not a serious solution for reducing crime. >> the nra is clearly, dramatically out of step. >> lapierre dismissed background checks. >> background checks will never be universal. >> you will never get criminals to go through universal background checks. >> because criminals will never submit to them. >> they will not go...
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also, former congresswoman gabrielle giffords's husband, mark kelly, will testify. joining me, mark smythe, a contributor to "msnbc." i want to go the line i first quoted. wayne lapierre, this comment sounds reasonable until you think about it. law abiding gun owners will not accept blame for the acts of deranged criminals. a law abiding gun owner is responsible for what happened in newtown, connecticut. a law abiding mother was a gun owner, by all accounts, and that law abiding gun owner couldn't control her we
also, former congresswoman gabrielle giffords's husband, mark kelly, will testify. joining me, mark smythe, a contributor to "msnbc." i want to go the line i first quoted. wayne lapierre, this comment sounds reasonable until you think about it. law abiding gun owners will not accept blame for the acts of deranged criminals. a law abiding gun owner is responsible for what happened in newtown, connecticut. a law abiding mother was a gun owner, by all accounts, and that law abiding gun...
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our first witness is mark kelly. he's -- our first witness is mark can kelly, retired astronaut and co-founded americans for potential solutions. thsz an advocacy that promotes to prevent gun violence and protect responsible gun ownership, with his wife, former congresswoman gabrielle giffords. please go ahead, sir. >> thank you chairman leahy and ranking member grassry for inviting me today. i look forward to an instructive dialogue with your committeeant want to take the opportunity to congratulate gabby's friend jeff lake on new role as arizona's junior senator. as you know, our family has been immeasurableably affected by gun violence. gabby's gift for speech is a distant memory. she struggles to walk and partially blind. a year ago she left the job she loved, serving the people of arizona. but in the past two years, we have watched gabby's determination and spirit and intel lekt conquer her disabilities. we're speaking to you today as americans. we're a lot like many fellow citizens following this debate about g
our first witness is mark kelly. he's -- our first witness is mark can kelly, retired astronaut and co-founded americans for potential solutions. thsz an advocacy that promotes to prevent gun violence and protect responsible gun ownership, with his wife, former congresswoman gabrielle giffords. please go ahead, sir. >> thank you chairman leahy and ranking member grassry for inviting me today. i look forward to an instructive dialogue with your committeeant want to take the opportunity to...
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also, former congresswoman gabrielle giffords's husband, mark kelly, will testify. joining me, mark smythe, a contributor to "msnbc." i want to go the line i first quoted. wayne lapierre, this comment sounds reasonable until you think about it. law abiding gun owners will not accept blame for the acts of deranged criminals. a law abiding gun owner is responsible for what happened in newtown, connecticut. a law abiding mother was a gun owner, by all accounts, and that law abiding gun owner couldn't control her weapons, and those weapons were eventually used to kill her and to kill all of those children and those women educators in that school. so that is what one law abiding gun owner got us. >> that is a good point, lawrence. >> and that is what neil heslin was saying in his testimony, was that that woman should never have had those weapons in that home with -- you know, knowing
also, former congresswoman gabrielle giffords's husband, mark kelly, will testify. joining me, mark smythe, a contributor to "msnbc." i want to go the line i first quoted. wayne lapierre, this comment sounds reasonable until you think about it. law abiding gun owners will not accept blame for the acts of deranged criminals. a law abiding gun owner is responsible for what happened in newtown, connecticut. a law abiding mother was a gun owner, by all accounts, and that law abiding gun...
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but also james johnson, the chief of police of baltimore county, and captain mark kelly, astronaut, navy veteran, and the husband of congresswoman gabby giffords. gabby giffords, of course, was shot in the head by a mentally ill gunman in an assassination attempt in january 2011. today in an emotionally charged and at times contentious testimony, the most moving part of the day happen right at the very beginning with a surprise addition to the witness list as gabby giffords herself made her way down the aisle into the hearing room to deliver a short statement to the senators and the assembled media and the audience. this was a surprise today. it was clear that this was not >> okay. thank you for inviting me here today. this is an important conversation for our children, for our communities, for democrats and republicans. speaking is difficult, but i need to say something important. violence is a big problem. too many children are dying. too many children. we must do something. it will be hard, but the time is now. you must act. be bold, be courageous. americans are counting on you. thank
but also james johnson, the chief of police of baltimore county, and captain mark kelly, astronaut, navy veteran, and the husband of congresswoman gabby giffords. gabby giffords, of course, was shot in the head by a mentally ill gunman in an assassination attempt in january 2011. today in an emotionally charged and at times contentious testimony, the most moving part of the day happen right at the very beginning with a surprise addition to the witness list as gabby giffords herself made her way...
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. >> giffords was joined by her husband mark kelly. he explained why the couple decided to start an organization devoted to gun regulation. >> gabby is one of roughly 100,000 victims of gun violence in america each and every year. one of our messages is simple. thebred and complexity of gun violence is great, but it's not an excuse for inaction. >> president obama would later meet with giffords and kelly at the white house. but the rest of washington has not been as welcoming. nra chief wayne lapierre who's expressed some sympathy for the victims also told the senate he has no interest in collaborating even on laws that restrict the gun access of convicted criminals or the mentally unstable. lapierre resit rated that the nra still opposes basic background check rules. that puts him at odds with the constituency he claims to represent. nine in ten gun owners support background checks. >> let's be honest. background checks will never be universal because criminals will never submit to them. >> many policy makers, however, object to that
. >> giffords was joined by her husband mark kelly. he explained why the couple decided to start an organization devoted to gun regulation. >> gabby is one of roughly 100,000 victims of gun violence in america each and every year. one of our messages is simple. thebred and complexity of gun violence is great, but it's not an excuse for inaction. >> president obama would later meet with giffords and kelly at the white house. but the rest of washington has not been as welcoming....
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. >> giffords husband mark kelly says expanding background checks should be a top priority but the nra's chief executive yesterday refused to give any ground. >> we know from what happened in tucson that if there was an effective background check which includes having the mental health data and the person's drug use in the case of the tucson shooter into the system and if, in fact, there was no gun show loophole, i would contend he would have had a very difficult time getting a gun. if background checks are good enough for somebody who is a federal firearms licensed dealer like walmart, for instance where i just purchased a gun a couple months ago, a hunting rifle and i had to good through a background check, why isn't that good for other sales? >> my problem with background checks is you'll never get criminals to go through universal background checks. i mean, all the law abiding people. you'll create an enormous federal bureaucracy. >> we're not going to prosecute the bad guys if they do catch one. and none of it makes any sense in the real world. >> that's the point. the criminals won
. >> giffords husband mark kelly says expanding background checks should be a top priority but the nra's chief executive yesterday refused to give any ground. >> we know from what happened in tucson that if there was an effective background check which includes having the mental health data and the person's drug use in the case of the tucson shooter into the system and if, in fact, there was no gun show loophole, i would contend he would have had a very difficult time getting a gun....
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her husband, captain mark kelly, also testified. kelly's message, demanding change is not the same as taking away people's guns. >> we take that right very seriously, and we would never, ever give it up, just like gabby would never relinquish her gun, and i would never relinquish mine. but rights demand responsibility. >> giffords and kelly are pleading on behalf of common sense here. this is why gun safety opponents like the nra's wayne lapierre need to create multiple straw men instead of talking about the facts. the gun lobby will do anything to keep all guns free from restrictions. fewer restrictions means more sales, which means more money for gunmakers and manufacturers and guys like wayne lapierre. >> if you try to do this universal background check, which sounds whatever, it ends up being a universal federal nightmare imposed upon law-abiding people all over this country. criminals will ignore it. so what is the point of the whole thing? >> this is lapierre's newest argument. a universal background check won't do anything, h
her husband, captain mark kelly, also testified. kelly's message, demanding change is not the same as taking away people's guns. >> we take that right very seriously, and we would never, ever give it up, just like gabby would never relinquish her gun, and i would never relinquish mine. but rights demand responsibility. >> giffords and kelly are pleading on behalf of common sense here. this is why gun safety opponents like the nra's wayne lapierre need to create multiple straw men...
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giffords' husband mark kelly cofounded the organization with her. he gave powerful testimony as well today. >> we believe wholly and completely in the second amendment and that it confers upon all americans the right to own a firearm for protection, collection, and recreation. we take that right very seriously, and we would never, ever give it up just like gabby would never relinquish her gun and i would never relinquish mine. but rights demand responsibility. and this right does not extend to terrorists. it does not extend to criminals. and it does not extend to the mentally ill. >> one more thing i want you to see. following this morning's testimony, gabby giffords and mark kelly met with president obama in the oval office. so david corn, i show you all that and i ask how can the momentum to the extent that momentum exists right now on the president and the white house side, how can it be maintain snd how do you maintain that level of emotional testimony? >> well, it was quite an emotional moment watching gabby giffords get up there courageously a
giffords' husband mark kelly cofounded the organization with her. he gave powerful testimony as well today. >> we believe wholly and completely in the second amendment and that it confers upon all americans the right to own a firearm for protection, collection, and recreation. we take that right very seriously, and we would never, ever give it up just like gabby would never relinquish her gun and i would never relinquish mine. but rights demand responsibility. and this right does not...
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following this morning's testimony, gabby giffords and mark kelly met with president obama in the oval office. so david corn, i show you all that and i ask how can the momentum to the extent that momentum exists right now on the president and the white house side, how can it be maintained? how do you maintain that level of emotional testimony? >> well, it was quite an emotional moment watching gabby giffords get up there courageously and her husband who i've met in the past i have to say is damn impressive. he was a hero for going up in the space shuttle and now he's a hero for taking on this hard issue and doing it with such great aplomb. it's important, keep him and gabby giffords and the kids in newtown, keep them in the spotlight. let them have the platform they want. the only way anything happens on the gun violence prevention front is if the intensity level remains on the side of people looking to change the status quo. you know, you know on the side of the nra and extremists on that side, there is already the intensity. it's always been there. they care about this. it's often th
following this morning's testimony, gabby giffords and mark kelly met with president obama in the oval office. so david corn, i show you all that and i ask how can the momentum to the extent that momentum exists right now on the president and the white house side, how can it be maintained? how do you maintain that level of emotional testimony? >> well, it was quite an emotional moment watching gabby giffords get up there courageously and her husband who i've met in the past i have to say...
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. >> jimmy, the senate hearing witness list, folks from both sides, pro safety, mark kelly, james johnson, a chief of police in baltimore and chairman of the national law enforcement partnership. those on the other side, wayne lapierre, nicholas johnson and gayle trotter but as i understand it, you heard there's some concern that there's a slant to those witnesses that they're more gun advocates than those who want to see some safety legislation put in place. >> well, that's right. i think that you have a more than handful senate democrats and not liberals, per se, pretty upset about the fact that chairman leahy of vermont who's the chairman stacked the witness list against those or in favor if you will of those who are against gun control and so i know that today senator dianne feinste feinstein, second on the judiciary committee and has assurance to have another hearing without a witness list that will be stacked or stacked the other way, if you will. i mean, and so i think that you have members -- if you look at the dias, you have senators of big snams, new york, california, illinois,
. >> jimmy, the senate hearing witness list, folks from both sides, pro safety, mark kelly, james johnson, a chief of police in baltimore and chairman of the national law enforcement partnership. those on the other side, wayne lapierre, nicholas johnson and gayle trotter but as i understand it, you heard there's some concern that there's a slant to those witnesses that they're more gun advocates than those who want to see some safety legislation put in place. >> well, that's right....
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and do you think that she and her husband, mark kelly, will support some specific legislation? >> you know, they've made it very clear through their organization and the creation of it, americans for responsible solutions, and their testimony the other day, they support universal background checks. they support doing something about these high-capacity magazines and, you know, mark has made it very clear that if it were not for a high-capacity magazine, fewer people would have been killed in the tucson shooting that gabby was a victim. clearly, fewer people would have been killed in -- at newtown, as well as aurora. and so those two things -- there seems to start to be -- develop some consensus armound. but we've got to make sure this continues to be a ground-up, grass roots, ground swell of support. because, you know, i wish that there were more members that could find their own courage to do the right thing. but what they really need to do is hear from their constituents about the common sense reforms that are necessary. we've got to have comprehensive reform, short-term and
and do you think that she and her husband, mark kelly, will support some specific legislation? >> you know, they've made it very clear through their organization and the creation of it, americans for responsible solutions, and their testimony the other day, they support universal background checks. they support doing something about these high-capacity magazines and, you know, mark has made it very clear that if it were not for a high-capacity magazine, fewer people would have been killed...
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giffords and her husband, mark kelly, are vowing to do whatever it takes for new gun safety measures, and we'll be right back. >>> we're back. we've been reporting this week on efforts by republicans in some states to change the way votes are counted in order to give republicans a major advantage in future presidential elections. it's an effort that has picked up the most steam so far in virginia. the legislation was introduced there that would allocate their votes based on congressional districts rather than winner-take-all. the goal seems obvious, to dilute the urban vote, the ethnic vote or the black vote or whatever you call it. last night i called it a mickey mouse gimmick to win elections without having to actually win the most number of votes. thankfully, not all republicans have joined the mickey mouse club on this one, and there are indications today, good news for everybody, that the virginia bill might be heading toward defeat. state senator ralph smith, a republican, said this morning he thought the plan was a bad idea, and virginia governor bob mcdonnell also said today h
giffords and her husband, mark kelly, are vowing to do whatever it takes for new gun safety measures, and we'll be right back. >>> we're back. we've been reporting this week on efforts by republicans in some states to change the way votes are counted in order to give republicans a major advantage in future presidential elections. it's an effort that has picked up the most steam so far in virginia. the legislation was introduced there that would allocate their votes based on...
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giffords and her husband, mark kelly, are vowing to do whatever it takes for new gun safety measures, and we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. executor of efficiency. you can spot an amateur from a mile away... while going shoeless and metal-free in seconds. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle...and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. now this...will work. [ male announcer ] just like you, business pro. just like you. go national. go like a pro. and his new boss told him two things -- cook what you love, and save your money. joe doesn't know it yet, but he'll work his way up from busser to waiter to chef before opening a restaurant specializing in fish and game from the great northwest. he'll start investing early, he'll find some good people to help guide him, and he'll set money aside from his first day of work to his last, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. but, dad, you've got... [ voice of dennis ] allstate. with accident f
giffords and her husband, mark kelly, are vowing to do whatever it takes for new gun safety measures, and we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. executor of efficiency. you can spot an amateur from a mile away... while going shoeless and metal-free in seconds. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle...and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. now this...will work. [ male announcer ]...
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she will be joined by her husband, mark kelly. they face off with wayne lapierre. it's the first senate hearing on gun violence. >> the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. >> i'd like to be able to sit down with the nra at some point and talk to them about this. i know a lot of members of the nra. i've thought about joining at one point. this is just happening way too frequently. we can't have another 20 first graders murdered in their classroom. >> lapierre has released the statement he plans to deliver today. unsurprising will he, he will denounce a proposed assault weapons ban. somewhat more surprisingly, he will come out aggressively against the background checks bill which a lot of folks thought the nra would quietly not fight too hard. he'll say this "law abiding gun owners will not accept blame for the acts of violent or deranges. criminals, have been around for over 100 years. background checks will never be universal because criminals will never submit to them." giffords and kelly will appear on the panel several weeks afte
she will be joined by her husband, mark kelly. they face off with wayne lapierre. it's the first senate hearing on gun violence. >> the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. >> i'd like to be able to sit down with the nra at some point and talk to them about this. i know a lot of members of the nra. i've thought about joining at one point. this is just happening way too frequently. we can't have another 20 first graders murdered in their classroom....
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kelly, husband of gabby giffords. before testimony began, giffords made a plea for action. >> violence is a big problem. too many children are dying. be bold, be courageous. americans are counting on you. >> kelly followed, arguing for restrictions on magazine clips, enhanced mental health care, and advanced background checks. >> we're both gun owners, and we take that right and the responsibilities that come with it very seriously, but rights demand responsibility, and this right does not extend to terrorists, it does not extend to criminals, and it does not extend to the mentally ill. >> while wayne lapierre struck a posture less combative than previous press conferences, his views remain questionable, calling for an immediate blanket of security at schools, lapierre dismissed universal background checks, saying criminals would never submit to them. chairman leahy pressed lapierre on background checks and whether and how the nra head had changed his mind on closing gun show loopholes. >> should we have mandatory bac
kelly, husband of gabby giffords. before testimony began, giffords made a plea for action. >> violence is a big problem. too many children are dying. be bold, be courageous. americans are counting on you. >> kelly followed, arguing for restrictions on magazine clips, enhanced mental health care, and advanced background checks. >> we're both gun owners, and we take that right and the responsibilities that come with it very seriously, but rights demand responsibility, and this...
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giffords and her husband, mark kelly, made an emotional appeal to congress to expand background checks to gun shows and private sales. >> too many children are dying. too many children you must act. be bold. be courageous. >> my wife would not be sitting in this seat. she would not have been sitting here today if we had stronger background checks. >> but the national rifle association chair, wayne lapierre, came out aggressively against background checks, arguing that the legislation which has the best chance in congress will do nothing to stem gun violence. >> my problem with background checks is you're never going to get criminals to go through universal background checks. >> we'll stop them from the original purchase. you miss that point completely. and i think it's basic. >> senator, i think you missed -- >> let there be order! >> and lapierre tried to turn the debate back on the administration. >> drug dealers with guns, gangs with guns, and felons with guns. they're simply not bei ining enforced. the numbers are shocking. in chicago, in one of the worst areas in the country for g
giffords and her husband, mark kelly, made an emotional appeal to congress to expand background checks to gun shows and private sales. >> too many children are dying. too many children you must act. be bold. be courageous. >> my wife would not be sitting in this seat. she would not have been sitting here today if we had stronger background checks. >> but the national rifle association chair, wayne lapierre, came out aggressively against background checks, arguing that the...
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mark kelly who's the husband of a victim of gun violence, he's going to be there. he's obviously been somebody who's been outspoken in terms of what they would like to do in terms of future things. the other thing, republicans were able to put two of the panelists on there. it's the first conversation that will spark many other hearing at the judiciary committee. >> i want to close by talking about two articles from you all. some of your latest piece pieces. first one perry, on the agree owe, on debt ceiling obama forces republicans to blink. >> their policy they call it the boehner rule. for every dollar increase in this debt ceiling we have to have a dollar in cuts to match that. the president said earlier this month, i'm not doing that anymore. we are not going to keep negotiating over the debt ceiling. this is our obligation over. the republicans have conceded the president had won the argument and are now -- this week they ebb extended the debt ceiling with no accompanied spending cuts. the republicans will cede that issue to him. >> your latest article, mitt
mark kelly who's the husband of a victim of gun violence, he's going to be there. he's obviously been somebody who's been outspoken in terms of what they would like to do in terms of future things. the other thing, republicans were able to put two of the panelists on there. it's the first conversation that will spark many other hearing at the judiciary committee. >> i want to close by talking about two articles from you all. some of your latest piece pieces. first one perry, on the agree...
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gabby giffords' husband, mark kelly. >> and that's the difference. other victims are now speaking up, and to see gabby yesterday and her husband by her side talking about this, these were strong nra supporters, and yet they see what can be done. >> i think -- >> 20 dead first graders -- >> go ahead, ron. >> i ws going to say in closing, 20 dead first graders has a way of concentrating the mind. >> right. >> it's a serious conversation. it's an american conversation. thank you, congresswoman carolyn mccarthy of new york and ron reagan. >>> we have one more note about the epidemic of gun violence in this country. yesterday we told you about 15-year-old hadiya pendleton of chicago who was fatally shot in what may have been a gang turf war after having performed in washington with her high school band for the inaugural music festival. it all happened since then. we learned in 2008 she was featured in a video speaking out against gun violence. here is part of that video. >> so many children are fearing gangs, and it's your job as students to say no to gan
gabby giffords' husband, mark kelly. >> and that's the difference. other victims are now speaking up, and to see gabby yesterday and her husband by her side talking about this, these were strong nra supporters, and yet they see what can be done. >> i think -- >> 20 dead first graders -- >> go ahead, ron. >> i ws going to say in closing, 20 dead first graders has a way of concentrating the mind. >> right. >> it's a serious conversation. it's an american...